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Chat Transcript Becker
Moderator (Will Richardson): In sum, then, I think “we” are putting broken carts before the horses. “We” are concentrating too much on the “why change” argument without first fully and clearly articulating what it is “we” want from schools. Furthermore, the “why change” arguments, I argue (meta?), are fundamentally flawed.
Jennifer Jones: part of the problem is the "we"
Jennifer Jones: everyone go out and bring in someone who isn't part of "us"
Moderator (Will Richardson): "There are lots of reasons for the institution of schooling to be transformed. Likewise, there are lots of reasons to consider the affordances of ubiquitous computing for learning."
John Pederson: lolbus
srwagner: Einstein-- C student right?
Jeff Moz - Ontario (Det) Group: DR. Becker- how do you view the automotive industry vs education
Mike Kaechele: @srwagner I am not sure that is true about Einstein
Jeff Moz - Ontario (Det) Group: Some of the same comments could have been said about the automotive industry
sanmccarron: The careers and job fields are different.
Jason Ramsden: It's a tipping point that is occurring. No? There is a growing mass of folks who are now connected who are saying the same thing... why do we need "proof" ?
Greg Thompson (@akamrt): Dr. Becker, what do you see as the purpose for school? Why should we continue the endeavor?
sanmccarron: Of course you need proof, but it is there.
crafty184: Jason, how do you know we are reaching a "tipping point"?
micwalker: @Jon, Did you see/hear anything at Educon to change your mind?
Jason Ramsden: @crafty - you were at EduCon.. isn't that mass of folks all saying the same thing a good start?
Wendy Drexler: Yeah.
crafty184: Jason, but a tipping point would require a whole lot more folks than the small group of folks at EduCon, no?
Moderator (Sheryl Nussbaum-Beach): Better not-- I'll fight for her
micwalker: A wonderful video!
crafty184: But the Wendy Drexler video only really works for a kid with existing cognitive schemata and tools to analyze that task
Jason Ramsden: @Crafty - True.. but the fact that the numbers are growing is an indicator..
Wendy Drexler: Or had to get it all from a textbook.
Moderator (Will Richardson): Not in every library.
crafty184: Jason - agreed, I just question how far we are from a tipping point.
Jeff Moz - Ontario (Det) Group: or access to "experts" in real time
Moderator (Sheryl Nussbaum-Beach): If you were a linear, text driven learner who had parents who would take you to the library that might work.
Megan Connolly: for the k-12 enviroment?
Shelly Blake-Plock 1: Learning by books and Learning by 'talking to people' = two different things.
terry: Hello, found the room from twitter, where do you go normally to find out about these?
barbara: Yes k-12 context?
Moderator (Sheryl Nussbaum-Beach): @Terry Twitter or for many who are here-- PLP
Ben Grey: I'm here now. Let's just go ahead and start over.
Moderator (Sheryl Nussbaum-Beach): @Ben hahahah
brandtschneider: do we know how far the "average" kid has to go to get to a library?
crafty184: @bengrey You're already under the bus.
micwalker: I wouldn't be here tonight without the connections I have made with people and information.
John Pederson: lolbengrey
Ben Grey: Plenty of room under here for many more, I see.
Jennifer Jones: one difference is that we can no longer discount behaviorism, because people with access to the Web are under the constant influence of it. How does constructivism work in environments designed around stimulus and response?
Ben Grey: Skill, yes. Literacy, no.
Moderator (Sheryl Nussbaum-Beach): Why wouldn't we want to change schools? Even if technology wasn't part of the discussion. Educating the masses in the way we do dumbs down education.
micwalker: @sheryl and dumbs down our students!
Megan Connolly: Why is is that 47% of kids eho take SATs have an A average?
Ben Grey: The economy of education has become the finite sets of basic skills we assess in a high stakes way. We've forgotten a large portion of the child.
srwagner: thw skills and literacies required to be successful in society are different
Moderator (Sheryl Nussbaum-Beach) to Will Richardson, Sheryl Nussbaum-Beach: I put ?s in Skype for you from chat.
rairvin: Because information is now at our fingertips, why would we continue to teach in a way that teaches kids that it's not at our fingertips?
wmchamberlain: @Sheryl School does actually work for some of our students. It worked for their parents too. They have no reason to want to change.
Ben Grey: We want them to learn how to learn.
Moderator (Will Richardson): Great question...
meredith: accelerated reader!
phsprincipal to Will Richardson, Sheryl Nussbaum-Beach: I want our schools not to get in the way of my children's learning
Megan Connolly: learn how to learn how to be citizens
Moderator (Sheryl Nussbaum-Beach): @wmchamberlain yes and then there are those marginalized kids for whom it didn't work...
Jason Ramsden: @crafty - Fairly far, but consider how much that movement has grown in the past two years (percentage way) and that makes me hopeful.
micwalker: @wmchamberlain And worked for most teachers. Makes it hard for them to want to change.
Greg Thompson (@akamrt): Shouldn't process (of learning) trump content as what underlays the purpose of schooling?
rairvin: How do we learn as adults?
Moderator (Will Richardson): Is that dependent on the changing expectations we have for what are kids are going to need to be able to do?
Cary Harrod: I guess I wonder what we mean by it "worked" for some. How do we know it "worked"?
Moderator (Will Richardson): Any century skill
shareski: It was also a 17th century skill
Megan Connolly: learn how to be responsible for their own learning
edtechsteve 1: I've got two little ones and I want them to learn how to learn, but I also want them to face some trials and tribulations, both academically and socially. I want their schooling to be an experience they learn from, in all areas
wmchamberlain: @micwalker Many (most?) teachers were successful students. Why would they want to change?
Ben Grey: The medium has changed, the purpose remains the same.
Shelly Blake-Plock 1: Why are 'digital' and 'f2f' two different things? Kids twitter while in class; they share Del Bms while sitting together in groups.
srwagner: whether it "should be" or not is irrelevant-- how we communicate IS different
Cary Harrod: Again...what do we mean by "successful"?
Ben Grey: Digital storytelling addresses foundational literacy.
Karen Frimel: It gets back to your access point. Communication is communication and the opportunity to do it differently is what has become stretched.
Cary Harrod: Does getting an "A" mean you learned?
micwalker: @wmchamerlain Agreed!
wmchamberlain: @Cary The typical definition of success in school is a diploma, either HS or college.
Ben Grey: Democracy is difficult.
edtechsteve 1: @Cary maybe if we change the A to Applied, or Analyzed
Megan Connolly: do we have a technology based culture?
Denise Olsen: I want my children to learn how to think..
Moderator (Sheryl Nussbaum-Beach): "Remains the same" but only since Horace Mann and common education.. it was very different before that-- why did it change? Gives light to why we should change now.
Megan Connolly: do we need to know how to paricipate in the culture?
Cary Harrod: Right...and I think we need to rethink what it means to be successful. @wmchamberlain
rairvin: How to think and process information.
shareski: @Cary the definition of success and purpose varies greatly among the public which makes this conversation so very challenging
Moderator (Will Richardson): Design, evaluate and manage one's own work so that it continually improves.
Frame, investigate, and solve problems using a wide range of tools and resources.
Collaborate strategically with others.
Communicate effectively in many forms.
Find, analyze, and use information for many purposes.
Develop new products and ideas.
Ben Grey: Come on Jon, throw someone else under the bus. It's a bit lonely under here alone.
jonbecker: I'm thinking Shareski's up next.
Jeff Moz - Ontario (Det) Group: Think about this last election-- it was not won by the traditional methods of the past.. what will happen in 3 year
micwalker: My 6th grade son spends much of science class cutting lab reports and pasting them into a composition notebook.
Laura Deisley 1: @shareski that is the biggest obstacle I think
wmchamberlain: Until we agree to the purpose of education we will never get a consensus on what or how to teach.
Alan Stange: no video here, should there be?
Cary Harrod: Absolutely NOT happening in my kids' classroom
barbara: Yeah but deal with that at home!
Ben Grey: @jonbecker He'll just sit under here and complain to me that I don't attribute all of my life to him.
shareski: @Laura, that's why we continue to have diverse experiences for kids, some of that isn't bad but certainly opens us up to some less than positive experiences
terry: Alot of this isn't happening in my class even, because of the 'curriculum' i have to follow . . . and nclb demands
Gene FJHS: are we still going on?
Karen Frimel: Have they ever????
phsprincipal to Will Richardson, Sheryl Nussbaum-Beach: The shift is here, in words, not in the schools.
Rodd Lucier: One major shift is that everyone used to have a common understanding of what tools to use in teaching.
Gene FJHS: in between sessions at our Open House
Ben Grey: @Will So let's wrestle with what collaboration actually means. And how often do we assess it?
shareski: @alan, no only audio
Alan Stange: okay thats fine
rairvin: yes, the system is flawed
Moderator (Will Richardson): right
Jennifer Jones: How can you address those skills when people are artificially divided into groups by birthday and closed up in a room with a single tall person?
Megan Howard: And Willl, at the graduate school level (teachers college) the future teachers aren't being prepared to teach that way!
micwalker: We've also overwhelmed staff with too many tool options, too!
Laura Deisley 1: @shareski and that is why we won't be able to have a "successful" systemic disruption of schools that reinvents the institution of schooling
shareski: This is the blog post we are discussing
rairvin: the system is dealing with the agenda of testing
Wendy Eiteljorg: if many of the skills we want to teach are still the same, yet we have better tools to get there, why not use them?
Rodd Lucier: Many educators don't get collaboration in their own classrooms, so how can they translate this to modern tools?
terry: I live in a rural low socio economic area as well, so it is hard to do things online with them
Ben Grey: I don't think we want to call it that. Sounds dorky. Can we throw that name under the bus?
shareski: @Laura I agree, Which is why I focus less on systematic change, not sure it's doable
Ben Grey: @shareski With the right leadership, it is.
Laura Deisley 1: @shareski I'm with you.
edtechsteve 1: I used to think that the new generation of teachers would help a lot of our issues with these types of skills- WRONG. They are more comfortable with technology but that means nothing when it comes to actually using it in meaningful ways with students
Laura Deisley 1: @ben how does leadership make the difference for wholesale systemic change?
shareski: @ben...on what level? Give me an example of something beyond a school level.
Megan Howard: exactly edtechsteve - and it's worse, bc its alll about the tools
Laura Deisley 1: all stakeholders have to agree on what "success" and "purpose" are.
phsprincipal: The system is flawed yes, but I think the problem is much deeper than adopting technology and new pedagogies. We have a societal problem. The society does not value education or the people that provide it.
Jennifer Jones: the concept of "the system" has to change. It's bigger than schools.
Karen Frimel: I agree that it is not about technology, it is about practices.
Laura Deisley 1: and educators and capitalists don't agree
Wendy Drexler: @edtechsteve I could give you many examples of brand new teachers who have little or no exposure to technology for learning.
Ben Grey: @shareski Do you want school level, district level, beyond?
shareski: district or beyond
rairvin: I think there has to be a shift in the agenda
Denise Olsen: Technology has made the ability to think even more important
Jeff Moz - Ontario (Det) Group: with technology-- your voice has no bounderies
Karen Frimel: How do you define learning on your own?
wmchamberlain: Are teachers that are not using technology having these same conversations?
Ben Grey: @Laura Because true leaders empower the constituents to make the requisite change.
Megan Connolly: technology is an accellerant, but it's not what the reform is about
Richard Olsen: Alan Kay talks about children needing to learn unverisals and non-universals. Non-universals are 'harder' to learn: reading and writing, deductive abstract mathematics, model based science, equal rights, democracy, perspective drawing, theory of harmony, similarities over differences, slow deep thinking, agriculture, legal systems
edtechsteve 1: @Wendy It's a big project just itching to happen, that I wish I had time to put together- research/expose into teacher prep programs in this area
micwalker: @edtechsteve The new generation still has had the same model in their instruction. Pre-service needs to change, too!
Laura Deisley 1: @ben I don't believe it is that simple.
Jeff Moz - Ontario (Det) Group: @ micwalker - agree
Ben Grey: A great superintendent can empower, enable the environment, and lead the change in a Godin Tribes sort of a way. Then that tribe could lead the change for other tribes.
Jennifer Jones: corporations are facing the same changes
Jennifer Jones: the workforce has to function differently
Gene FJHS: the work world is far ahead of us
shareski: @Ben give me an example of where that's happening
micwalker: Our state PLP parent advocator called the P21 "non-academic" skills. Yikes!
wmchamberlain: @Ben Then he/she leaves and what then?
Jennifer Jones: the 40 hour workweek is obsolete
Laura Deisley 1: @ben I get that but I don't see it happening
rshardell: Might be dating myself: METACOGNITION! How does technology enable it?? While we have globablization -- that's great. but do students know BASIC skills to survive and compete either locally or globally?
Moderator: We as parents or we as teachers?
Jeff Moz - Ontario (Det) Group: Is society in a state of denial about education
Ben Grey: @Laura No change is simple. It's quite complex, but if we don't work to change the system, the pockets won't do it alone.
rairvin: I am technically working right now!
Gene FJHS: correct Jennifer 40 hours is no more
Megan Connolly: where else but in school?
rairvin: using techonology to learn for my job
Megan Connolly: like what?
Rodd Lucier: If teachers can model reading and writing, surely they can model learning...
Jennifer Jones: @Gene and with no 40 hour workweek, kids should be spending more time in more diverse groups with adults
Ben Grey: If the leader leaves, he or she has empowered the others to continue leading the change. I don't think enough of us has served under that kind of leader.
Catherine: Delivering material to kids looks completely different in a tech integrated classroom.
edtechsteve 1: The funny part is, the high school version of me would have HATED the type of schooling we are talking about and advocating for.
Laura Deisley 1: @ben pockets can push change up IF they can demonstrate "success" in delivering the "desired product." Until the vision=desired product for all stakeholders a great leader has got his hands tied.
rairvin: we can also model using technology in our reading, writing and learning
shareski: @ben...the problem is that when we talk systemic, it very easily moves to "standardize" which is in oppostion to "customize". Pockets are good and I'm fighting to create more pockets
Wendy Drexler: Aren't you really talking about balance and best use of face time? We don't have to throw the baby out with the bath water, but we're way out of balance right now toward the lecture/test model.
Gene FJHS: @Jennifer how do we get the adults to communicate
terry: So what do you do with rural areas that still haven't got universal 'broadband' and the kids can't do the outside stuff on the internet
Megan Connolly: so if school is not to teach how to be a passionate networked learned, what are we doing?
Jennifer Jones: @Gene digital communication contexts with real world incentives
Megan Connolly: is it babysitting?
Ben Grey: @dean Pockets are ok if they are working to make the bigger change. Pockets that remain isolated pockets are quite troublesome.
Derek Leslie: How do we pre-assess student competence as digital/networked learners?
edtechsteve 1: @terry wouldn't it be great if we could get the students involved with businesses to purchase and place this access in hotspots? or even in homes?
Rodd Lucier: Do teachers need to network with classroom peers as a first step... and teachers to network with local colleagues first?
Alan Stange: @ Megan, I agree
wmchamberlain: @shareski Nice! We need to recognize the different cultures of each community and how they react to change. No one size fits all solution will work.
Laura Deisley 1: @jon like our chat room?
rairvin: Why can't we teach them debate over skype with someone across the country?
Rodd Lucier: @wmchamberlain Yes... no one way.
Denise Olsen: agreed
crafty184: Have we gotten away from talking about the logic of the arguments?
Jennifer Jones: I don't think kids should be networking globally until they meet the other classes in the school, and people in the community.
Annette Campos: @rairvin good idea
shareski: @ben...pockets need to work as viral movements work. If we look at the web as an example, it's very hard to drive systematic change, most change comes in viral, organic ways. Given the diverse opinions about educaiton, that's the best we can hope for
Rodd Lucier: Agreed @Jen.
Denise Olsen: why wouldn't they do both?
rairvin: But they do that already
Megan Connolly: so why can't learning how to be a citizen not also teach them to be a passionate, networked learner?
phsprincipal: It becomes more engaging to use that tool Jon.
Ben Grey: I'm not suggesting monolithic change. Many people complain about the change that needs to happen, but then when given the opportunity to change, find excuses for why they can't.
Derek Leslie: community over capability?
Wendy Drexler: Debate was one of the processes that came out of the PLE research project.
Ben Grey: YES!
Moderator: @Denise agreed
Jeff Moz - Ontario (Det) Group: because they are going to build the next car with engineers in Japan not in the next cubicle
shareski: I agree, Jon, the difference is most schools don't have diveristy
Catherine: The face to face time with kids needs to be about creating, sharing, talking, and questioning. Kids need quality relating with adults who encourage them to be their best.
John Pederson: choo choo! here comes the bus
Ben Grey: Is the bus now a train?
Laura Deisley 1: @ben that is human nature
shareski: I did say that
John Pederson: @bengrey You complete me.
Ben Grey: Look, Dean just provided proof.
Jennifer Jones: Does anyone ever question that value of "learning?" Can there be too much learning? When is it enough or best?
Ben Grey: @John. I miss you.
shareski: your a hard ass
Alan Stange: But why would I be hear listening to this instead of talking with someone local? Because there is nobody local. Social Networking over long distances is often a necessity.
crafty184: @shareski you're
Ben Grey: Ouch.
Wendy Drexler: lol
Ben Grey: This is one, mean, bad to the bone train/bus.
Denise Olsen: an indication of opportunity
John Pederson: (Here's Jon Becker, trying to speak and read the chat at the same time.) /jonmadden
rairvin: @alan Agreed!
srwagner: I think the reason schools need to change is that a 60% graduation rate was fine 30 yeaqrs ago-- but it just isnt good enough anymore.
Ben Grey: The democratization of information is making it a near must.
Megan Connolly: must change since kids with $100,000 of debt can't find job
Denise Olsen: Can all kids access this outside of school?
shareski: If we are trying to replicate those lectures in our schools, then we become redundant
Annette Campos: Here is a video shared by some friends on Plurk about 21st century teachers:
Ben Grey: Use the class time for transfer.
Shelly Blake-Plock 1: Jon, In your opinion, what is the 'purpose' of education? And where does education 'get you'?
Ben Grey: Apply the concepts from the lectures to situations the students haven't encountered.
Laura Deisley 1: so what are the "musts" Jon that indicate we "must" change?
phsprincipal: The tech tool cannot be the focus. What is the takeaway?
crafty184: @bengrey Define transfer.
phsprincipal: What do we wrap in the box at the end of the day as a takeaway
Ben Grey: Dean keeps trying to hold my hand under the bus. It's weird.
rairvin: Why do we not have our students sit in rows anymore? (in elementary schools)
phsprincipal: Does technology make that takeaway more usable?
rairvin: Because schools realized that they needed to change
Denise Olsen: Ben..chuckle
rairvin: from the 1950s
Greg Thompson (@akamrt): Why do we need to continue perpetuate the current learning culture? Why should we have schools?
Alan Stange: @rairvin, because the room is too small for any other arrangement!
Ben Grey: Does Dean have the authority to throw Jon under the bus from under the bus?
rairvin: @alan So True!
Moderator: Ben...pay attention.
Shelly Blake-Plock 1: Bus landed upside-down.
crafty184: @bengrey What do you mean when you say transfer?
John Pederson: that's awesome
Ben Grey: @crafty. Transfer as Grant Wiggins defines it. Applying what is learned to a situtation he/she has not encountered.
terry: thats what I was thinking about the rooms size - too small to do anything else
Wendy Drexler: Just read Harnessing America's Wasted Talent - an interesting take on the higher ed argument.
Derek Leslie: I was reminded of the Segway -- motorized walking. Cool idea, but does it replace walking. Novelty doesn't stick.
Ben Grey: This bus is messed up.
Shelly Blake-Plock 1: Yet Segways have a niche: mall cops.
Ben Grey: Which is pretty cool.
Moderator: My kids aren't, and they go to "good" schools.
Karen Frimel: That is not new news.
shareski: Not about tech in that case
phsprincipal: We also have far too many students showing up not ready no matter the pedagogy
shareski: you said before that the change you see is about acces
Ben Grey: @Jon. Establish the goals, and then see if the technology moves us toward those in a way are better without them.
shareski: access. what are the implications of access?
Richard Olsen: no we don't need to change schools into hi-tech schools, just need to give them all their own laptop and face up to the fact that the Internet exists
jeffmason: We all have our own ideas about what a "good" school is.
Ben Grey: @Jon And wrestle with equity of access.
Megan Connolly: right on
Shelly Blake-Plock 1: Education is catching up with the shift that has 'already' happened.
Ben Grey: It's not because of the technology, it what the technology affords us. Much like this very experience.
Denise Olsen: Agree!
rairvin: yes, the internet exists and someone needs to teach students how to use it wisely!
Jennifer Jones: How do network connections assist in perpetuation of faulty arguments? Is "the network" simply a scale model of the communication challenges in the field of education?
Megan Connolly: like 1/2 day kindergarden?
edtechsteve 1: It all hinges on the teacher and their effectiveness. So the real question is simple- how do we get more of the poor teachers either out or trained to be more similar to these high-quality teachers? I think it starts with teacher prep and working through ed leadership from US Ed Secretaries on down to school principals
srwagner: trying to do school without the technology is like teaching art with no paint, crayons, or clay--- it isnt real-- in the real world they will use technology to learn, solve problems, and communicate-- why would we teach them to do it another way in school
Megan Howard: Yes - and they are teaching kids that technology is scary...ugh!
Alan Stange: @Richard -- yes indeed, but simply as part of the environment. Ustreamed witht he students today and cautioned them to get over their excitement -- it is business as usual now
Derek Leslie: When do we began to diagnose digital competency in school?
Ben Grey: That's a mouthful.
meredith: she's going to be at TEDx
Moderator: For individuals, the true value of education has to be intrinsic, not extrinsic. It can’t be just about gaming the system, gaining the imprimatur of some exclusive external organization. The point of those one year, two years, four years, or ten years after high school is to help you figure out what you want to do, and to give you the ideas, skills, and connections you need both to do it, and to prove that you can do it. Period. For institutions, likewise, being allergic to talk of productivity and efficiency won’t do anymore. Parents and families are going to vote with their dollars, and better options are only a click away.
Laura Deisley 1: @will agree about Bauerlein (sp)
Rodd Lucier: I'd love to see an ecosystem of practices... it would take openness, sharing, permission to experiment with modern tools. No one right way; but as a parent, if my kid(s) are being taught by teacher-researchers who continually modify their practices, then I'd smile.
wmchamberlain: Can school reform be separated from using technology? Are they necessarily tied together?
Laura Deisley 1: @rodd absolutely. master learners.
phsprincipal: Where are the pockets of excellence. Where are you seeing the things you talk about Will?
Ben Grey: Note, he didn't say prove. No anthropomorphizing there.
Moderator: Outside of school
Ben Grey: Jon is going to be mad.
Alan Stange: @wmchamberlain -- no they are not linked. I don't subscribe to the belief that reform is dependent on technology. Many ways to skin a cat
Shelly Blake-Plock 1: Expectancy value theory: how does that apply to Baltimore Orioles fans?
jonbecker: I'm cool...Crafty's my boy.
phsprincipal: Is what we are doing now an example?
Ben Grey: Well, he's my interpreter, so I win.
shareski: @Shelly what about a Cubs fan?
Megan Connolly: can you give an example of expectancy vale theory?
Ben Grey: So who's under the bus now?
phsprincipal: I disagree
Ben Grey: Nice.
Rodd Lucier: Trying to figure out "What is my extrinsic motivation for learning?"
Jennifer Jones: the author said it wasn't about intrinsic/extrinsic. she's on chris' side
Ben Grey: When do we get to talk about learning styles not existing, either?
Alan Stange: pregnant pause here
Jennifer Jones: oh, wait. i misread.
Mike Kaechele: I think using tech. in schools in a bigger deal to teachers than students. It is "normal" to them
shareski: instead of tofu
phsprincipal: Who will work for tofu...that would be weird motivation
shareski: what a lofty goal
Ben Grey: I guess that bears true from logic. If it's extrinsic, it has to turn intrinsic before they act upon it.
rairvin: @shareski tofu is normal to students? intersting?
rshardell: I think that we spend too much time focusing on the "gadgetry" of technology. When technology advanced in the 60's or 70's, there wasn't this big thrust to introduce portable radios to class 'because they're 'connected' "
Jennifer Jones: ex: you're here because the announcement was a bell in your head that set off dopamine that made you feel happy with the expectation of what you think will be a pleasant experience
shareski: As learning gets more personalized and curriculum's begins to address true diversity, how will that impact school reform?
Moderator: This speaks to the Alfie kohn argument about grades.
srwagner: but using a radio well was not a requirement to functioning well in society--
Alan Stange: @shareski -- when can we expect THAT to happen?
Ben Grey: Grades, there's an entire conversation with most all teachers under the bus.
Jennifer Jones: So nice to hear voices, not just text tweets. I like this.
Shelly Blake-Plock 1: You are describing authentic learning. Like doing a project that matters. Or using your brain to help folks. Right?
Moderator: @shareski I think it's about opting out.
shareski: @alan it is beginning and I believe the technology is pushing it to become more personal, long ways to go but I see it
phsprincipal: I am not sure the bus is going anywhere that matters
rairvin: We don't even do grades in our elementary school
shareski: @will maybe?
Megan Connolly: it was intrisnic
shareski: only 3 have been thrown under the bus, I was expecting more
Megan Connolly: why???
crafty184: Nope, self-motivated is under the bus
Annette Campos: @rairvin so how do you evaluate them? where do you work?
Ben Grey: @Shareski I think there's a whole crowd with us under here.
Helen Burnham: Sorry to be just coming online. Late meeting
rairvin: we evaluate them with meeting benchmarks or not meeting benchmarks pluses or minuses
Ben Grey: Waiting for Jon to make nice with me.
Moderator: But we're trying to fashion an argument that "works"
shareski: I agree with that
jeffmason: a school that creates a sef-determining learning environment is a good school
Rodd Lucier: It used to be... they need to be able to create a job!
Wendy Eiteljorg: @Jon Becker, I have not read your blog post, but what do you want school exactly to do?
Mike Kaechele: @Jon What is wrong with experimenting? Do we need evidence before we attempt a new method?
shareski: I'm guessing most parents think it is about job preparation
Megan Connolly: so you don't need a job to be a good citizen?
srwagner: I would love school to be a place where they were taught more than just how to pass the damned test and unfortunately that is a bigger focus than anything although few will admit that
rairvin: so it seems like there really is no argument that works and maybe we just need to throw technology out the window
Denise Olsen: I think that is how you prepare kids for jobs
Ben Grey: So, Jon. What's the purpose of education?
edtechsteve 1: You're still talking about preparing kids for jobs, though right?
Derek Leslie: is Jon Becker a lone voice of realism in education vs. the idealism I so often hear?
rairvin: Of course after the week I had in my lab, I might be ok with that.
Megan Connolly: what kind of job does a member of a deliberative democracy have?
Shelly Blake-Plock 1: Of course, Google hasn't started hiring the 'next' generation yet. We don't know what that looks like.
Rodd Lucier: Cue Severn with @courosa
rairvin: @srwagner Agreed!
Ben Grey: What is a deliberate democratice education?
wmchamberlain: Maybe the question needs to be what is the purpose of school to the student?
Denise Olsen: our kids are global citizens think xbox360
tomfullerton: There's a whole unwritten curriculum here we're not touching on - social aspect of schooling. Parents who are willing to put in the time and effort can get access to the academics, but that has always been the case. Not changed with tech.
Moderator: I what's best for the world necessarily what's best for democracy?
Ben Grey: What are we trying to democratize?
Megan Connolly: no
Shelly Blake-Plock 1: This isn't about 'culture appreciation'.
Moderator: informal learning
Greg Thompson (@akamrt): Are students currently living in a deliberate democracy?
rairvin: Also, how do we bring in relevance to the kids?
Mike Kaechele: democracy looks different in different countries and cultures
srwagner: if we stop letting the textbook companies decide what we teach based on what they know how to test we'd be better off-- our standards are a great guide-- but unfortunately, we only teach the ones that are tested
Moderator: "All kids should be able to learn personally."
edtechsteve 1: However we can start creating flexible problem solvers is how we can get this done
wmchamberlain: How about the purpose of ed is to help students discover what will make them happy.
Ben Grey: That's where the systemic change occurs. In that conversation.
rairvin: If tech is relevant to them, why not use it in their education? Guess I'm stuck there.
Shelly Blake-Plock 1: 'Local' is 'Global'. Check Walmart.
Megan Connolly: tech is part of our culture. Why don't we use it while teaching them to be good citizens?
srwagner: the technology is just the tool-- shouldnt we use the best tools for the job-- no matter what the job?
Moderator: Why shouldn't we, though?
Ben Grey: Is that how you do it all the time? You're connecting with people all over the states now.
rairvin: We CAN use paper and pencils too. SHOULD we?
Mike Kaechele: If you have ever lived in another culture, I think that you know that it is an important learning experience
Ben Grey: We aren't here tonight because we can, we're here for a purpose.
Jennifer Jones: @srwagner I don't think we should use the best tools. kids need to learn to solve problems with limited resources
Rodd Lucier: Standards for edcuation that I've read are pretty good... but many teachers ignore the richest skill-based expectations and teach/test facts using pen/paper.
shareski: that's modeling personalization...we connect because we can and choose to
rairvin: @jennifer why limited resources?
Wendy Eiteljorg: the skills translate if you model for students that they translate and practice that
shareski: part of it is "proof of concept" that's important
rairvin: @Will AGREED!
Alan Stange: There are good reasons and we should connect internationally or across states if for no better reason than we need to make young people real to each other ... media does not convey authenticity, conversations do.
Jennifer Jones: @rairvin: because if we teach kids to be "users," they will end up just being used
Rodd Lucier: Call it intrinsic or extrinsic, but modern tools are a motivator...
rairvin: @jennifer What do you being used?
shareski: Obviously it should more beyond that but we show students that we can connect with whomever we want...that opens ups great possibilities
crafty184: @rodd Misplaced, sir. Tools are not motivators beyond the novelty effect. If there is no expectency of value there will no longstanding motivation for learning.
rshardell: We use it [technology] now because it is a current tool; but we shouldn't allow the tool to drive curriculum; use to to aid in acquirig knowledge. It's value can be identified in many ways: shortens production time; enables QUICK and timely communicaton. It's part of our culture now.
Jason Ramsden: @Will @Jon did anything come across?
tomfullerton: inspiring young learners to engage in participatory democracy I think should start with their local communities and we don;t ~need~ tech to do that
srwagner: @jennifer I have to disagree-- I want to use the best tools available for my students to learn-- although i dont think they should waste resources-- they should use all those available
Ben Grey: Is there value in this conversation?
shareski: @crafty not sure the tools hold motiviation but connections do
edtechsteve 1: Tools don't motivate- relevance motivates
Shelly Blake-Plock 1: How do you define 'value'?
Jennifer Jones: what is the value in easy, efficient, and more more more knowledge?
Ben Grey: Learning.
Moderator: @Jason...not much...try again.
Greg Thompson (@akamrt): Who determines what is value and where it comes from?
pam m: I've been thinking abt what great teachers in camps and cavies might have been doing in 10000 BC vs today- bet they had many of the characteristics we value- today's tech can accelerate learning for contemporary learners
Moderator: go ahead
Wendy Drexler: I hear you Jason.
Wendy Drexler: Not any more.
edtechsteve 1: that was wookie like
Jennifer Jones: @srwagner: The "best resources" are very good at validating ideas and confirming bias
Rodd Lucier: @crafty... to many examples to list in support of the other side...
jonbecker: Jason's no good at technology
Wendy Drexler: lol
Jeff Moz - Ontario (Det) Group: IS it about value add or evolution I think if you keep looking back you will miss the future
Derek Leslie: thank you Jon
Ben Grey: Does this conversation go anywhere?
Jason Ramsden: @Jon - Yep... no good at technology
jonbecker: under the bus, Ben. It goes there.
shareski: @Ben what do you want? a white paper?
crafty184: @shareski @bengrey wants a new literacy.
Ben Grey: No, just want to either continue the conversation or move to action.
Megan Connolly: a white paper would be good
shareski: Jon and Ben can write it
nls: Good night all. Sorry to be a stalker.
Jennifer Jones: Do the wheels on the bus still go 'round and 'round?
Rodd Lucier: Lots of thoughtful discussion. Thanks everyone. Wish my kids' teachers were so engaged...
Megan Connolly: anyone intrinsically motivated to write the paper?
Denise Olsen: ha ha
Alan Stange: @rodd but how many of us are multitasking here? :p
Moderator: @Megan Nice
srwagner: @jenniferjones still disagree-- I am not looking to validate ideas, I am just looking to give my students every opportunity to reach their full potential and in this word that includes technology literacy and the ability to use the most modern tools to solve problems
Gene FJHS: thank you
rairvin: @srwagner agreed
Denise Olsen: Thank you!
shareski: Ben, what action?
Ben Grey: Let's just continue on for another hour.
nls: Thanks all
srwagner: Thanks for hosting Will and coming to talk Jon
rairvin: thanks everyone
j_allen: Thanks again!
Karen Frimel: Thanks!
Jeff Moz - Ontario (Det) Group: thanks
Ben Grey: @shareski Systemic change.
tomfullerton: wishing I wasn;t trying to play monopoly with my kids while listening in :P
Mike Kaechele: thanks everyone
Alan Stange: How nice, I am glad I stopped in
edtechsteve 1: Thanks - fun and enlightening
shareski: @ben....good luck
Wendy Drexler: Very interesting conversation. Thank you, Jon.
jonbecker: Will, did you record this?
meredith: Thanks Will and Jon!
tomfullerton: excellent discussion - thnx
Karen Frimel: Gave me something to think about.
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